For Nathan and Ned (& any other Christians out ...a question

[Gawen]

Would you consider Jesus your boss?

[Asmodean]

I have a somewhat similar question:

Why should someone like me, who never really did care what my parents said or thought, care about something someone unrelated and unknown to me said or thought a long, long time ago?

Which also inflicts the question: How do you know that your god is still alive at all? Ok, suppose a god can not suffer a natural death, but accidents do happen... As do black holes and a whole bunch of other disasters.

[i_am_i]

I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of Christians consider Jesus to be their sort of spiritual ski-instructor and they're paying for their lessons by believing in him.

[freeservant]

We often use the Biblical reference of Jesus being Lord of Lords and King of Kings thus as one of the persons of God who is one being in three persons I would say we have a strong basis upon which to make Jesus the Boss of all Bosses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL_30anaO7U

Yet we are to be pitied if we are wrong as hope would be lost and all should properly despair.

I have a somewhat similar question:

Why should someone like me, who never really did care what my parents said or thought, care about something someone unrelated and unknown to me said or thought a long, long time ago?

Which also inflicts the question....

Think for a moment about history and how there has been an effort to kill off Christianity for close to two thousand years.  Should not a lie or a delusion be easy enough to stop or redirect?  If mankind creates a religion then does it last all that long?  Could not a better god come along and replace Marduk with Apollo or Loki with Arther Dent?  If the age of a truth fails because it is old would that not be like a strawman? RE: The wisdom of Diogenes is from so long, long ago I should not care or seek to learn what he said...

God has communicated with us sufficiently in the past and changes the hearts and minds of Christians to this day.  A living God for the people who are alive today.

[philosoraptor]

I have a somewhat similar question:

Why should someone like me, who never really did care what my parents said or thought, care about something someone unrelated and unknown to me said or thought a long, long time ago?

Because those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it.  This has nothing to do with God, but do you care about the things said by people like Gandhi, Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King, George Washington, etc...?  Of course these aren't in the far past, but you get the point.

I guess what I'm saying is, just because something is old doesn't mean it can't be valuable.  Although I still think the Bible is the Christian equivalent of Greek mythology.

[Whitney]

If mankind creates a religion then does it last all that long? .

Hinduism and Buddhism are still going strong and Islam very well might outgrow christianity in our life time.  So, being that they can't all be correct, I can be more than confident in saying a religion made up by men can last a long time.

[freeservant]

If mankind creates a religion then does it last all that long? .

Hinduism and Buddhism are still going strong and Islam very well might outgrow Christianity in our life time. So, being that they can't all be correct, I can be more than confident in saying a religion made up by men can last a long time.

My understanding of Hinduism and Buddhism leads me to believe that both can easily accommodate Atheism as nondulist in nature you can understand that no god or all is god can tend to bring it down to the subjective zeitgeist of the culture at the time.  And it is also my understanding that for Hinduism as far as the predominate sect goes one must be born to Hindu parents to get in.

I agree that Islam is in the ascendancy by birthrate alone. It stands to march over Europe in the next 60 years as the Churches liberalize and European culture turns away from the Christian ethic.  But we both know that Mohammed blended a lunar god worship with Judaism and if you think this religion of salvation by works would continue in a free and open marketplace of ideas that would be a good topic to debate.  Islam as a religion of peace   is held together by the sword of slavery to Alah (the first pillar) thus I think would not survive long if you did not suffer the threat of death if you leave it.  Yet there are those brave kuffar who commit their hearts to Jesus and convert even at the risk of death.

I grant the Christianity is under attack but has survived in a free and open marketplace of ideas where there is no sword to compel anyone.  I grant that if biblical prophecy continues to be as accurate as it has been in the past then you have a Church body that is lukewarm and ripe for the schisms of the last days.  That free marketplace will close.  False Christians will stand against true Christians in the last days as the numbers of faithful will be under constant attack and death for standing with Christ.  You can see some of this now in places like North Korea and China (the emerging atheist superpower).  In America the ability of the true Christian to practice their faith will become ever harder.

Finally you can see that if there is a God then God is powerful enough to preserve and protect the truth and the true faith.  Also if there is a God then we should naturally seek God and can be routed to false Gods as Satan must also exist.  The properly basic belief in God is within us all but that does not mean we don't have the free will to either make ourselves gods or be tricked by Satan's efforts against God.

[Squid]

Out of curiosity, what is the difference between a "true Christian" and a "false Christian"?

[freeservant]

Out of curiosity, what is the difference between a "true Christian" and a "false Christian"?

A true Christian would necessary need to have a true relationship with the true God of scripture and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as helper and guide to the truth.  A study of the bible and how false teachings and the assumption of godlike power to change laws and times (like the inerrant Pope) will give you a good means to tell the difference.  This will even be possible for those who have hardened their heart against God.  As Satan wants to be worshiped in the last days it may be hard to resist the powerful delusions that Satan will perform.  I personally see that there may be need for Atheism in the last days but I am only speculating about that.

[Tank]

Firstly thank you so much for a direct answer to a direct question, it's such a pleasure to meet somebody prepared to engage rather than just spit vitriol, derision or apathy, if you can do such a thing a spit apathy   maybe one would just dribble it?

{snip}

Think for a moment about history and how there has been an effort to kill off Christianity for close to two thousand years.

While all the time Christianity was trying to kill off other faiths, literally in some cases. So in this case as all parties are motivated by religion and so the individual religions can be discounted, they cancel each other out. So what one is actually observing is nothing more than a massively amplified tribal war where blood alliance is replaced by the appropriate religious alliance.

Should not a lie or a delusion be easy enough to stop or redirect?

You'd think so wouldn't you. However very few humans have the capability and intelligence to think critically, to be able to hold a concept at arms length and be reasonably objective about it. If you take religion out of the equation and consider most people are gullible than a suitably motivated, single minded, charismatic individual can get people eating out of their hands, Hitler, Pol Pot, John F Kennedy, Winston Churchill, Mohamed et al. People like to belong, they need to feel validated and valued. There is nothing more validating to the human ego than being in the 'best gang!'

If mankind creates a religion then does it last all that long?

Depends on the ideas that underpin the religion. The key to the lure of most religions is eternal life in some guise or another. The packaging changes, Judaism, Christianity, Islam but the contents are essentially the same the bribe of eternal life vs the natural human fear of death.

Could not a better god come along and replace Marduk with Apollo or Loki with Arther Dent?

Well the current flavour of the millennium is Allah so yes Gods do fall out of fashion, we see it all the time.

If the age of a truth fails because it is old would that not be like a strawman? RE: The wisdom of Diogenes is from so long, long ago I should not care or seek to learn what he said...

Not sure I follow this bit.

God has communicated with us sufficiently in the past and changes the hearts and minds of Christians to this day.  A living God for the people who are alive today.

This is simply preaching. Please don't do this. It's like trying to teach a pig to sing, Ultimately futile and it annoys the pig ie me.

Religions were and are used to fill the gap in understanding humans are faced with when trying to come to terms with reality. They provide ego boosting affirmation of values to the individuals that adhere to a given religion. They provide the comfort needed when things go wrong. They offer safety in numbers and the security of group membership. They are the ultimate seductive fantasy as they offer a way to avoid death. What's not to like about religion once you're wrapped up in the comfort blanket of your choice?

The real world is a brutal, uncaring place that cares not if any creature lives, dies or prospers. The only meaning a person has is that which they are prepared to take responsibility for and how much work they are prepared to put in. I would think for many religion is inherited, cultural and just the way the world is. It's the 'no brainer' option.

Not believing in God is way harder than believing in God. I would love there to be a God, I really, really would. Because then I can lay back and relax knowing that nothing I did was my fault. I could cast off any responsibility for my actions as I would know that all I am is ultimately a chess piece for the amusement of something I could never hope to understand. I would be no more responsible than a pet or an animal in a zoo. But not believing in God makes me ultimately responsible for EVERYTHING I do or say. Each time I use the tumble dryer rather than hang my washing out it's ME who chooses to add that little bit of damage to the world with the carbon dioxide I generate. Each time I drive to the shops rather than walk. Each time I don't give to a charity that knocks on my door, each time I say something spiteful, mean or nasty, the times I don't clean up after myself knowing full well that my wife has a lower mess tolerance than I and she'll end up doing the washing up after I've gone to bed. All these little things are my responsibility and born of my selfishness. There is no redemption either. I just can't kneel down, talk to myself and make it all better.

[Gawen]

We often use the Biblical reference of Jesus being Lord of Lords and King of Kings thus as one of the persons of God who is one being in three persons I would say we have a strong basis upon which to make Jesus the Boss of all Bosses.

Very well...

A true Christian would necessary need to have a true relationship with the true God of scripture and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as helper and guide to the truth.

I am going to assume that you fit the above requirement and ask you one question.
I am asking you to give me 10% of your annual net income (just this year only) as per:
Matthew 5: 42: 'Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.'"
Because the way I see it, your Boss decrees that you do so.

And...

If you are disinclined to acquiesce to my request, you cannot be a True Christian. Or, if you are a True Christian, you are at odds with your boss and would seem to need a change of vocation...*chucklin*

[Gawen]

Yet we are to be pitied if we are wrong as hope would be lost and all should properly despair.

To start...mayhaps an observation of your screen name? "Freeservant"? I am assuming this has something to do with your worship of the Bible God? If so, I wager you are not free at all; a believer of the bible god. Correct me if I am under the wrong assumption?

Yet we are to be pitied if we are wrong as hope would be lost and all should properly despair.

This is somewhat confusing. Do you mean that other non-believers would pity you if you were wrong? Or do you mean something else entirely?
At any road, I would think that you would be quite embarrassed if you were wrong, however. I mean, if you were wrong, what's to despair over? If you found out you were wrong and your hopes had been dashed upon the jagged rocks below, well, it makes no sense to be despairing.

I wouldn't pity you if you were wrong about your beliefs. More than likely I would just look you in the face and say something like..."'Bout frakkin time! Now you can throw away the chains of dogma, think critically and live life as humans are supposed to live"
But the next bit of stuff you write...well, it makes me pity you now.

Think for a moment about history and how there has been an effort to kill off Christianity for close to two thousand years.

First, you haven't really backed this up well. And Tank brought up a very good point:

While all the time Christianity was trying to kill off other faiths, literally in some cases.

Should not a lie or a delusion be easy enough to stop or redirect?

Yes, but you have to recognise it as such. Not live it.

If mankind creates a religion then does it last all that long?

Others have commented. But I'll add that there are many gods out there. Round 2700 of them. All man made. Some cannot or will not last long at all. But thanks to Constantine and subsequent early Catholics, the fear of the one and only true loving god was pummeled down the throats of the people. Christianity did not last long at all during Constantines' time. Why do you think there have been 34,000 different types of Christianity since then? And all man made too. And that brings me to your next line of Christian diluted critical thinking, so I'll ask the same thing:

Could not a better god come along and replace Marduk with Apollo or Loki with Arther Dent?

Why do you think there have been 34,000 different types of Christianity since then? Do you play sports? If so, do you move the goalposts around much? Perhaps not, but you do here.

I grant the Christianity is under attack but has survived in a free and open marketplace of ideas where there is no sword to compel anyone.

I could go off on this one statement for quite a few pages. But I won't. I'll just say that your awesome and loving god has a very poor track record when it comes to using swords. Read the Old Testament lately (I so hate using that term)? Your god these days doesn't need a sword. He has a hell to threaten people who will not worship him.

If the age of a truth fails because it is old would that not be like a strawman? RE: The wisdom of Diogenes is from so long, long ago I should not care or seek to learn what he said...

This statement is a strawman in itself.

God has communicated with us sufficiently in the past and changes the hearts and minds of Christians to this day. A living God for the people who are alive today.

Unsubstantiated assertions. Give us some evidence for these please.

I grant that if biblical prophecy continues to be as accurate as it has been in the past...

Please support this assertion.

...then you have a Church body that is lukewarm and ripe for the schisms of the last days.

It's been the "last days" for the last 1700 years. As I said above; 34,000 different cults of Christianity. How many more schisms does your god need to be the REAL last days?

False Christians will stand against true Christians in the last days as the numbers of faithful will be under constant attack and death for standing with Christ.

Jeeeez....
How in the world will all the different Christian cults know who is/are the real cult? Will the Cumberland Presbyterians attack the Church of God. Maybe all the Presbyterians will get together and attack all the Methodists. Options...options...Holy crap dude, the logistics involved in your statement defy credulity.

You can see some of this now in places like North Korea and China (the emerging atheist superpower).

China is the fastest growing state in Christianity.

In America the ability of the true Christian to practice their faith will become ever harder.

Apparently you know not of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

Finally you can see that if there is a God then God is powerful enough to preserve and protect the truth and the true faith.

34,000 Christian cults....remember?

Also if there is a God then we should naturally seek God...

No...I think you have that backwards. He should be seeking us. At any road, he remains invisible to all I really wish you would trot out this god of yours. I have some questions for him that Christians simply cannot seem to answer.

...and can be routed to false Gods as Satan must also exist.

Man, you're full of logical fallacies today. This one is called a "Slippery Slope".

The properly basic belief in God is within us all

What is the proper basic belief in your god?

...but that does not mean we don't have the free will...

You have no free will anyway if you believe in the bible god

to either make ourselves gods

No...perhaps not. But it would make us "Sons of Gods". Romans 8:14. Of course, one must have the Holy Spirit come into them first.

[Gawen]

ooops

[McQ]

God has communicated with us sufficiently in the past and changes the hearts and minds of Christians to this day.  A living God for the people who are alive today.

This is simply preaching. Please don't do this. It's like trying to teach a pig to sing, Ultimately futile and it annoys the pig ie me.

In fairness, and as one fairly learned in Christian apologetics, I have to suggest that this is not preaching at all, but a very important part of explaining Christian belief and mindset. We wouldn't be able to have a good discussion of this topic without such information.

The judges will allow

[McQ]

God has communicated with us sufficiently in the past and changes the hearts and minds of Christians to this day.  A living God for the people who are alive today.

This is simply preaching. Please don't do this. It's like trying to teach a pig to sing, Ultimately futile and it annoys the pig ie me.

In fairness, and as one fairly learned in Christian apologetics, I have to suggest that this is not preaching at all, but a very important part of explaining Christian belief and mindset. We wouldn't be able to have a good discussion of this topic without such information.

The judges will allow it to stand.
 

(sorry for lousy use of quotes, having some issues with doing this on a mobile account right now)